Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:11 Welcome to season three of to be continued troubling the Archive. In today's episode, NAA Rap and Mylene Briggs are joining in to share the thoughts on the role of spoken word poetry and community making. How does language make us feel connected? How does language alienate and in what ways does spoken word poetry take up its own creative practice and role in conversations of trauma, longing, diaspora, and memories?
Speaker 2 00:00:41 Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of To Be Continued Troubling the Archive. My name is a Sha Hawk pronounced Shein. They, and I'm super stoked to have with us today Mylene naa, running all the technical aspects of which I have no clue is my friend and colleague Finn. Our episode today considers the work of spoken acts of art, so the connection to language and community and diaspora, specifically in Algonquin territories. Um, we're joining in from, uh, Agon as well as remind me what territory you're in right now.
Speaker 3 00:01:16 I'm people.
Speaker 2 00:01:24 Awesome. Um, so our episode really today is a conversation and I always say there's no investigative journalism happening here. Uh, it's us telling stories, listening to each other, uh, and maybe having a couple of laughs along the way. Um, today's meant to be a moment where we lean into stories of, you know, creative practices through linguistic, um, projects to connect claim and, uh, attend to home and diaspora. Um, I'm gonna ask each of my guests to introduce themselves and we'll go from there. Na, do you wanna go first?
Speaker 4 00:01:59 Yeah, sure. So, name pronoun, um, spoken word artist primarily have been slamming for quite some time as well, so I was part or part of the community. Um, a lot of started in Ottawa, umprobably around or so, um, I've lucky. Um, and I was able to publish a chap in 18 or 19, I probably should know this, um, but it's called Dirty Laundry and it was published by Bottle Express. That's a little bit about me.
Speaker 2 00:02:38 Awesome. Mylene.
Speaker 5 00:02:42 Uh, hi everyone. Um, I'm Mylene Briggs pronoun. She and her. I actually also wanna note that currently I'm on the Anta territory of the Tongva, Chumash and Ke, um, nation. And I am primarily an artist, um, a writer and filmmaker. I'm also the co-founder of two separate art based nonprofits in our tongues. Reading an art series, which was founded in 2019 with, um, Sherry Alexander HIAs, uh, a amazing poet, and also Art and Action, uh, which was founded in 2014, and that that was to provide, um, free arts-based programming that supports mental health in the community. And I also have a business, um, a media production company called Kill Media. So that's been my primary bread and butter for about 10 years. And aside from all of that, I'm also a mother,
Speaker 2 00:03:55 Just a full plate, and then some basically <laugh>. Um, I have so many questions, so I I am incredibly new to the universe of spoken word poetry, so, you know, Namita, as you're talking, I'm like I even, before we get to anything else, I want some information. So tell me a little bit about, for both of you, what is spoken word poetry? What does this mean? What does it entail? Tell me all.
Speaker 4 00:04:21 Yeah, I mean, great question. If you could, lemme know, that would be awesome. Um, yes,
Speaker 7 00:04:27 Thank you. Finally,
Speaker 4 00:04:29 <laugh>, yeah, word's, something that is so much more different than reading it and like, obviously both have their, their place and both can be really powerful. But I think what really drew me to spoken was that element of speaking. I would myself from I do fucking, um, spoken usually has an element of sharing, like lived experience or, you know, personal, which I think can be marginalized to, to make space and to have space for yourself to tell your story. Um, yeah, I mean also I think there's the element of slam poetry, which obviously includes like a competition aspect, which you know, is complicated and nuance. The idea of, you know, essentially giving points to poetry is odd and complex, but also can be really fun and rewarding. Um, yeah. Marlene, please jump in <laugh>
Speaker 5 00:05:51 <laugh>. Well, no, I feel like you, you really stated it and you know, know, I don't, I don't consider myself a spoken word poet, so I feel like I might not even have authority to say what it means, but from like, listening to it and, and really bringing on, um, like poets and events that like, like honor that type of art form, I really feel like it's, it's really like a, an expression of yourself and you know, where you've come from and, and being able to like, share that in a way that might not necessarily resonate with anyone else other than people who have shared that experience as well. It's not meant to be like, palpable for everyone, right? Like, so I find it really beautiful in the way that, that like, it's, it's y it's your voice and it, it doesn't need to be for anyone else.
Speaker 2 00:06:57 It sounds really beautiful. Um, and the other sort of element to it, I, you've already sort of alluded to this uhha, when you're like saying slamming, I'm like, come
Speaker 8 00:07:07 <laugh>, I'm visual forms of therapy. Like,
Speaker 4 00:07:16 I mean, slammed is its own world of therapy. <laugh>,
Speaker 8 00:07:21 <laugh>. What is slamming, what does slam poetry, uh, entail? I'm also, what, what it's bringing to mind for me right now. Oh my gosh, please don't judge me. But it's like, she's all that and like Freddie Prince Jr with the hacky sack on stage and like doing like poetry. That's my,
Speaker 4 00:07:39 I mean, God Yeah, exactly. <laugh>.
Speaker 8 00:07:43 Um,
Speaker 4 00:07:43 Yes then poetry is spoken word in like a competitive sense, like you, so there's like a lot of rules to, um, uh, like the time limits and whatnot. Poems. So poems have to be under three minutes, you know, you can't have props. There's all these, um, restrictions. So it's a little bit more, um, tight than, than regular spoken word. I think there's like a lot of elements that you can play with like, you know, musical accompaniment or props in a regular spoken performance that obviously it's really focused on that performance aspect and like how tightly you can pack that into, you know, three minutes and 10 seconds of the grace period.
Speaker 5 00:08:28 Yeah. You can't, you can't read from anything, right? Like, you have to, you have to have it memorized and like Yeah,
Speaker 4 00:08:35 I mean I, I feel like it's interesting cause I think that like a lot, I mean, for the most part I would say people usually memorize their columns at, but I've noticed a shift, not away from that, but I've noticed more of inclusion like of, I think there's like the worry that it can deter from the performance aspect cause they're like not connecting with the audience. But I've also some incredible poems that have like read their, sometimes it's a testament to someone's this performer, but yeah, for the most part usually memorize like very scripted, not in like a performative sense, but there's usually like accompanying hand gestures or, um, like practice, like measurements of beats and how they're performed. Um, and usually, um, especially at like, um, like national competitions and whatnot, folks will have, um, uh, like a coach for the team. So, you know, these poems are like really drilled down, you know, everything is, um, again, like very scripted. Um, which I mean in itself it's performance right, is what is gonna be the most effective. But yeah, at the same time it can totally take away from what draws people to spoken word in the first place, which is just like a place to talk about your feelings and your life and feel heard and find community so complex. I have a lot of thoughts on it. Um, it still has, you know, a very, um, special place in my heart, but its definitely something to unpack for sure. What you
Speaker 2 00:10:23 To spoken word as a form.
Speaker 4 00:10:26 Yeah. Um, it actually started outta class assignment, which such a boring, but I was in writer class in high school. Um, we all had to pick a style of writing, do a, do a, a presentation on it and then write in that style. I originally chose rap cause I was like, oh, this will be a super fun project. And then I was like, I absolutely do not have a skillset for this. I am not gonna embarrass myself in front of my whole class <laugh>. Um, so I was like, okay, maybe spoken word feels like it feels similar. Like there's still that element of, you know, like performance and writing in, in, in a sense where it's meant to be heard rather than red. So I found that really interesting. Um, so I was like, this is fun. I'll take stab at it. This is when button poetry was really, so I had a lot of, um, inspiration there.
Speaker 4 00:11:18 Um, yeah, and I wrote this fucking word piece. I did a good job. I was like very pleasantly surprised by my ability to do it and how easily it came at first. I think I like, obviously there's a struggle with like writing poems and flushing them out, but I really enjoyed the process and I enjoyed how I struggled with it. Um, yeah, and then I honestly just dove right in. I found any and all open mics in the city. Um, and then I, so I started with open mics, um, little bit more comfortable performing when I first started perform was so incredibly anxious. I would like not eat for the day. I was like, all I could think about. But it was so incredible because I had all this anxiety. And then once I was on stage, I like enjoyed that feeling. I enjoyed like being able to perform this, you know, oftentimes what is really vulnerable writing to a group of people who kinda just get it and if they don't, there's empathy in the fact that they don't understand.
Speaker 4 00:12:19 So yeah, I started Open Micing, um, actually my first open mic at Urban Legends Clefa, who was the, um, Ben director, um, I think really saw something in me, which I feel like was the push that I needed to keep going to like really involve myself in the spoken word community. Um, so I started slamming. It was super scary, but I really enjoyed it. Yeah, it kind of just snowballed from there. So I was a part of Urban Legends and I was attending a lot of, um, open mics and slams, and I ended up competing with the Urban Legends team, um, nationally gu at the Canadian Festival for Spoken Word. And I ended up directing Urban Legends for, um, a couple years after that just cause I was involved. It felt like a different way to interact with and navigate spoken word. And from there I'm honestly just really lucky that I was able to connect with artistic in the auto community.
Speaker 4 00:13:14 I think Ottawa, I like owe so much to that artistic community and the way that it was big enough where folks could thrive and find really big opportunities for themselves to like, you know, as artists, but it was also tight knit where everyone kinda knew each other, you know? Um, even if you hadn't ever met you kind of just like, you would like see each other in an event. You'd be like, Hmm, I know who you're, um, yeah. And then, yeah, I just, I think I, I was very lucky that I was able to connect with some like really wonderful folks and get opportunities that way. And yeah,
Speaker 2 00:13:46 Like Ottawa is one of those places where you just, you know, you keep going to the same sorts of events over and over and like, even if you're the shyest person, eventually someone's like, oh, I've seen you somewhere. Or I just, yeah. But it, it raises an important question I think for me, for both of you is like, how has being in Ottawa developing a practice or growing in Ottawa, what has that experience been like for you, Marlene? You've talked about, you know, Kedia has been under a 10 year long project and then having, uh, you know, uh, art artist, artist run spaces. Um, can you share a little bit more about like what that process, uh, has looked like for you? It's a lot, but let's start
Speaker 5 00:14:27 <laugh>. Yeah, I was, I was thinking about this because when you sent over the, the questions I was like, Hmm. Like, has, has Ottawa influenced me as an artist or has it been more of the people in it? And like, starting off, um, in the early years of like, of art, for me it was was it looked very different than it does now. And I was also using a different medium at the time I was painting. Um, and I was showing a lot of my work at like, places like the Mercury Lounge and like Babylon and all these like different group shows. And even back then, like, I think the reason why a lot of us went that route is because of how, uh, gatekeeping the gallery spaces were. And also it was, it was really hard to find, um, at least for me, like when I did find people of color, I was like, latched. I was like, okay, you're here. Because the spaces that that I was in were like white hip hop guys who like <laugh>.
Speaker 9 00:15:47 Um,
Speaker 5 00:15:47 And so it felt, it felt like a lot different than it, than it does now. And I, I am, and part of, part of my response, part of the reason why I created these spaces and the way that they look like now is because I was missing those spaces back then. I was, I was searching for something that, like the community, it didn't have that, that, look, there weren't any spaces that had primarily, um, like people of color, for example, like within our tongues, you know, we are, we were really committed to having the platform be specifically for black, indigenous and people of color because all of the poetry events that we would go to were either like white led, you know, very, very like beige looking <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:16:47 That is how I'm describing white spaces from that.
Speaker 5 00:16:52 So yeah. And so we just wanted it to be like more colorful. And, and so I think that, you know, the fact that those spaces were lacking is, has directly impacted the way that I move through these spaces and, and like intentionally built something that could potentially be what other people are also seeking, um, or also need as well. Um, so yeah, <laugh>, yeah. More color, less beige.
Speaker 2 00:17:29 I mean the, one of the sort of thoughts that's coming up, coming up for me is like, as you're talking about the lack of spaces or like having to do the labor of creating spaces that like allowed for black and brown voices to be the primary sort of like, that define the space itself. What did that look like for you? Like, like how did you sustain your spirit? How did you keep it going in like in a landscape that really oftentimes does cater more often than not caters to whiteness, there's all of the elitism woven in, there's the gate creepiness of multiple ways of like not being able to participate fully in arts and cultural events. Um, what, you know, what sustained you?
Speaker 5 00:18:13 Hmm. That is a good question, honestly, because, um, even with art and action, so that, I started that with, um, a few, few people in 2014. And it was, a lot of it was I think for my own healing, um, which is what kept me going because I couldn't, I couldn't heal in other spaces. I had to heal with people who, who look like me, who have lived shared, lived experiences. And so that was like a huge factor in, in the motivation. Um, you know, there's so many different things that like you go through, uh, like starting anything, you know, like being part of a larger organization, being part of nonprofits, you know, we, at least for me it's like before, um, you know, the working world, you'd think of like these organizations as like these like really mystical things that like look like they have their act together that are like super, you know, like well developed.
Speaker 5 00:19:28 And then you get into those spaces and you're working with those communities and nonprofits and you're like, what is happening <laugh>? Like, like you, it's like you've lifted the veil off of, you know, lifted the veil off of something and instead of treasure, you're finding trash and you're like trying to dig through everything, being like, okay, some of this can stay and some of this needs to go. And then you put in so much effort to try to like nurture the, like, all of those like gems that you've found and you get exhausted because you're like, so much work needs to go into like sustaining and building and making it look and feel the way that you believe it should feel like. Right? And, and there's like, not just on the funding side, but then like within your own community there can be a lot of, um, lateral, almost like lateral violence where you're, you, you almost forget what like, or you, you see people that are working with you and, and you're like, the goal of this is, is for it to be a better space.
Speaker 5 00:20:43 And, and now we're trying to work with o within all this, this red tape and it needs to like, you know, fit within these boxes and you need to check everything. And then it's almost like that has like veered you off of the path of what your intentions were. And so now you're just working again with these like the same systems and then trying to almost like persuade your community to be like, this, this can be better. And, and they're like, either it's, I feel like there's like always like a, a push and pull where if you are not the one who is trying to keep the movement going or trying to keep things like on the right path, like it's very easy for it to go to go off the off the rails. And I think what is really important, what I've really understood now is, is even if you have like a core group of people, like one or two or people who are like your solid rock that you can lean on and say, I'm exhausted right now and I can't do anymore. Um, and for them to be like, you know what, you don't have to do anything. It's cool. Like it'll float without you. And if it's float, if it floats and it's messy, that's okay. Let it go right By having the by like core group of people that you like trust and that like are your sounding board is really, I think the only way that you can make it through
Speaker 4 00:22:12 These, these
Speaker 5 00:22:14 Systems. <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:22:15 There's nothing more than like the bureaucracy that exists to just constantly drain. Um, that I find, and, and I, you, I know you mentioned a little bit like you said funding, but like that itself is like another world of so much gatekeeping, so much Dre like drudgery to have to go through. And a lot of times super daunting. Like as soon as you know, there's nothing more frightening for me than opening a, a grant portal to look at the guidelines. And then I'm like, okay, well I'm gonna go now. Um,
Speaker 5 00:22:51 You're like tired. Even just opening it, you're like, uh,
Speaker 4 00:22:54 Yeah, yeah. That triggered me so much. I was like, ah, opening not the cramp for at all
Speaker 2 00:23:02 <laugh>. And it follows you into your dreams that turn into nightmares that like just never ending. And it's applications that just don't have an end. Like there's always some sort of stickiness of another moment where you're like, what You need, what, how, what? Like, there's just so much of the blocks mm-hmm.
Speaker 4 00:23:20 <affirmative> mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:23:21 <affirmative> that like, yeah. Having a core, you know, roster of folks that you know are your do or die who can like help you and hold you when you're just like, I just can't do this right now. Or I just need to step away for this for just a bit. Um, and still know that the space will continue to exist for you to return to. And I think there's something about Ottawa specifically. I, I mean, uh, no bashing on Ottawa, but at the same time, <laugh> like there is this, the, the space for indigenous black and brown folks in the city, uh, are in such pockets, specific pockets that like are impacted by those who are coming in and those who are leaving or taking a temporary break of relief from the tensions that exist in trying to maneuver around both institutional relationships, lateral community stuff like, and, and the more niche you get, the more you know everyone. So there's also the messiness of that. It's like running into your exes all the time. Everywhere.
Speaker 4 00:24:21 Oh, wow. That's
Speaker 2 00:24:24 On point. I, I think like, I, I wanted to know a little bit more though. Like as you're talking about these, you know, artists run spaces, specifically thinking about the relationship between art creation and health. Um, we turn to art for, I mean, Amitha also, you talked about this like, it's an, it's an opportunity for us to find a way to ourselves as well as to make connections and be witnessed by others, right? And in that it graphs a sense of community, even if there's no similar experience by everyone who's witnessing what you're doing.
Speaker 4 00:24:54 This is like a, a whopping generalization, but like, I feel like it's such a slam poet thing to, it's like those jokes about like gay kids who were best friends with their English teachers and I'm like, how did, are any of my life experiences unique? Like, I feel like a lot of it is, especially with it's, its that idea of like the audience and being able to make personal connection with your audience poetry. Like, you're not watching the consumer like consume art. You know, there is that element of like, you know, you trust that they're gonna take things the way you want them to, or I certain the way you want them, but feel there is you have poetry where like you, you know, can the tone of certain lines, like you can emphasize certain things, um, cause you want your audience to, to take it in a certain way.
Speaker 4 00:25:55 Um, yeah, I think that's like, I dunno such a draw of spoken word, but is also really exhausting, especially when you're talking about, you know, really vulnerable things. That's like a huge issue with slam poetry is that once you start assigning like essentially grades to poems, you know, you're like, what can I excavate outta my, like, trauma history that's gonna get me, you know, board? And that's like incredibly toxic, um, pattern to into, and like, I've seen people like walk off national stages after performing their poems like crying because I'm like, you weren't ready to share that with the world. And you know, I, I understand it's a learning process. Like sometimes you just like know until you've done it, it that it was like incredibly traumatizing. But I don't think there's enough discussion about what it looks like to write outside of your own trauma. Like what does care yourself does, looks like.
Speaker 5 00:27:03 Wow. That's huge actually. Like, you're right. Like I, I haven't, you know, in all of the, the slam poets that I know, like no one talks about that and, and like how to how to heal after you've shared something traumatic. And I, and even like, it reminds me too, like even in the, in the filmmaking industry, you know, I, I was, I was recently on set and we were like interviewing this, like, he's a pretty old man who had like witnessed some like very traumatic things and we're interviewing him and he's crying and everyone's like, this is great stuff. Like, keep him crying. And I'm the only one being like looking around being like, do we need to stop? Like, does he need to take a minute? And pe and I'm like talking to the producer being like, he's crying right now. Like, you know, he can't, he can barely even like get his words out.
Speaker 5 00:28:07 Like, you know, should we just like take a breather? Nothing. I'm like, who, who in these like, like pla positions of power or like decision making, like, ha haven't even stopped to consider the fact that like, after we leave this space, who is there to support this person after, you know, and, and across all art forms, like the vision of, you know, someone walking off stage, like crying. Like, did the organizers have even a thought that that could happen? And why wasn't there a thought that that could happen where someone could be supported after? Right. And and you're right. Like the, the way that we, the way that we have these like, you know, trauma pulling experiences to, to make like good movies or good poetry is like very exploitive and kind of disturbing and, and like, the fact that these conversations are very few and far between is problematic. And I think that like, especially just like seeing, you know, knowing that you recognize that it's like, oh, you'll, you'll make a, you'll make a difference. No pressure on you
Speaker 4 00:29:28 <laugh>. No, exactly.
Speaker 5 00:29:30 You'll change something like, yeah, I th and, and it is like, sometimes it can be exhausting to be like, you know, this the, there's no one else who's doing it. Or maybe there, there are other people who, who are creating safer, more supportive environments that like allow for this like, kind of like expression and sharing of trauma where at the end of it, you, you still have someone to like hug you and hold your hand or like, you know, visit you like a month after you've shared that traumatic experience to say, how are you doing? How are you, you know, um, the community aspect is so, is so necessary and, and we forget sometimes, like, we forget sometimes, like how much more important that part is, um, instead of just the, the show. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the sharing the, the art. Art, right? Like
Speaker 2 00:30:30 Yeah. That's,
Speaker 5 00:30:31 That's bringing up a lot for me.
Speaker 4 00:30:35 Yeah. No, I, it's so complicated. It's, it's like this, like, it's like capitalism, like, you know, like squirming its way into art and our expression, right? Like the end of the day, like if someone's crying, you're like, okay, this is like gonna get more views or more engagement or this is gonna be like, shared more widely. And I think like that is what stops people from intervening, right? That desire to, to still have folks have these like really like emotional reactions is like, oh, well yeah, this is gonna look great. And like, I think also from the artist perspective, like I think obviously there are times where folks just haven't like process experiences like in a way that they've needed to. And then, you know, emotions come out without from knowing. But I think sometimes, like, especially like I can only really speak to poetry, but I think that folks sometimes capitalize on that. They're like, okay, like, you know, I know that this is something that's gonna make me like really emotional. So if I, that's gonna come and, you know, are, you know, and isn't, and I think that that can be really scary. But also it's really sad cause I'm like, who taught you that that was the most important thing here to, to risk your own sense of, you know, peace and and comfort for points. Points. Like, I don't, yeah,
Speaker 4 00:32:02 It's complicated and, and weird and it, I can't help but feel like an entertainer. And I think that becomes very complicated when the entertainment is mm-hmm. <affirmative> actual lived experience.
Speaker 2 00:32:16 Yeah. And like, you know, what's it called? There's like this, this funny, but also I find quite relevant meme all the time where there's like this guy pointing at all these threads behind him and all of the threads lead to colonialism, <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:32:32 Really though it's always, it's always the root of it.
Speaker 2 00:32:36 Always the of it. And you know, as you're talking about like that the quickest sort of entry point to resonate with the audience becomes through pain, becomes through trauma. And I feel like in diaspora there's always an active state of grieving, even when unacknowledged and unnamed and unaddressed. It just strums in you at all points. And it shapes the way that, uh, like, you know, that we're able to connect with others and it becomes the primary vehicle through which we connect with others, or we're able to leverage that because it is that that entry point of like, this is a familiar companion, I know how to talk about it. But then the other end of it is the sharing that both like relies on like feeding the beast of who, uh, of like the audience that wants to know and gobble. And then the other end of it, the exhaustion and the re-traumatization that's happening in the act of sharing all of this, um, it, it's, uh, it's a bit of like a double-edged sword because on one hand it visualizes what is invisible, um, the unsaid, the unsaid, unspoken sort of pain. But then the other end of it is that pain becomes the only way that you're legible. Mm.
Speaker 4 00:33:46 Yeah. Yeah. Like you said, like, I do think it's important to talk about lots of these things cause they're considered taboo. There isn't really space for, for a lot of these topics. But I think that there needs to be more conversation about how you don't have to process through your art. Like you can process in your room silently and like work through something. And then maybe once you've like, you know, done a lot of processing, maybe write then at, remember remember I performed like a really vulnerable poem about, um, a traumatic experience. And like, I, I had done it after I had gotten to that point of healing, but I had an audience member like come up to me afterwards and like tried to make small talk, but it was by asking questions about that experience. And I think it, I think like there's also just like no audience etiquette sometimes. Like you need to, I think it needs to be very clear that like what people share in that like three minutes is all they wanna share and that is totally ok. And they're entitled to that. I think there needs to be so much, like, I feel just needs to be like an training for like audience covers and cause a lot is going on.
Speaker 2 00:35:02 Well, by virtue of you being on stage or in front of the audience, it feeds this, this audience thing is ready to be consumed, right? Even when you're not on stage, when you're not in presentation mode, that by virtue of you doing the three minutes, it leaves everything open-ended for like probing, uh, and it's so, it's, it's extractive, it's violent. It doesn't account for like the person who's like that was it <laugh> three minutes, that's all you're getting. Um, no mysteries need to be unearthed beyond that. Um, yeah.
Speaker 4 00:35:36 Yeah. Sorry to distract.
Speaker 2 00:35:38 Oh, kitten
Speaker 4 00:35:40 Kidding.
Speaker 2 00:35:42 No, no, cats are always welcome. I mean, dogs truly, I'm just specially partial to cats. <laugh>. Um, uh, I was going to ask, um, as you're talking about, you know, like pain trauma and, and like, um, spoken word as the art form, it's reminding me also of like folks like specifically indigenous feminists and indigenous, uh, sco like poets who are really thinking about moving away from like a damage centered narrative, right? There's a scholar, her name is eVet, and she writes about like, literally like a desire based framework in approaching producing work and in cultivating connections with community. And so much of it is like literally that you can still talk about all of the crappy stuff and all of the, you know, sad, violent inequitable positions and realities, but at the same time that there is room always at the center of the liveness of it, the joy of it. And, um, so yeah, like, you know, if if my lean's throwing down the gauntlets in the miha for like, what could be, you know, what, what could you make possible in the shifts of conversations around this, um, is like, what is it, you know, does spoken word exist in the same way if it's not grounded in pain or if it's not grounded in unleashing trauma?
Speaker 5 00:37:01 Ooh, that's a good one. I feel like it doesn't have to be right. Like
Speaker 4 00:37:11 I really don't think it has to be. I think there's such a narrative and I think that comes from this like, single story image of what a spoken word Paul needs to be about. But I, I have heard like incredible poems that have like moved me to tears about like, joy and resilience and about like the after like, posttraumatic event. Um, but I don't think there's enough of that. And I think it's, it's cyclical because there's not enough of it. And also, especially again, when it comes to slam, I think like, there is such a, such a recipe of like, what scores well, so I think people are discouraged from writing like joyful poems that are, you know, healthy and don't, you know, traumatize them because they're like, oh, well this isn't gonna win, so I'll just worry about myself later. But outside of, of competition, I, I'm so grateful for when Paul, when people do like, prioritize those things and, and add that to, to, you know, like the of spoken that it becomes a lot more common that a spoken word poem can be happy and, and be about joy and yeah,
Speaker 2 00:38:30 Does language factor into it? Like, um, you know, when you're, when you're doing work, um, and I oftentimes, like if you speak more than one language and that language is not English, uh, the translation to English sometimes doesn't, the words don't have enough meatiness to convey the feelings that might exist for the ancestral languages that we carry with us. Um, do you find, uh, like a challenge in sort of bridging both gaps between like, you know, your visual production mylene and, and like trying to bring these thoughts and feelings onto the visual realm, but also niha into your, your oral practice into the spoken word?
Speaker 4 00:39:10 Um, I could talk shortly about these language, if that's all right. I think that I actually really appreciate when there are poems that are actually, this is like kinda a tangent, but that are not in English, or like large parts of them are not in English. And I like, I think this kinda comes back to the idea that in the ideal spoken word space, that even if you can't relate to the experience that's going on, but there's still empathy for it. So when I've heard poems that, um, include a lot of someone's, you know, first language or ancestral language and I don't understand any of it, I think there's some beauty in that inaccessibility that's only really meant people that can understand it, especially spoken word. So of it is about performance. Like you can understand the gist of what people are trying to say or the emotions that they're trying to convey, and you don't actually need to know, um, all the words to, to understand that or to appreciate the poem. So yeah, also English sometimes just doesn't cut it. Um, speak other language, absolutely know that, especially like an old language. I think people know that English is a baby and compared to these like incredibly like rich languages that we were raised with. Um, so yeah, I love when I don't understand a poem at all, but I understand the feelings.
Speaker 5 00:40:34 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think that's one of the things that like, that um, I found frustrating when it came to writing is like, who made these rules? Like it's, it's, you know, like the thread goes all the way back to <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:40:53 <laugh>,
Speaker 5 00:40:55 You're like, why am I gonna write it this way? And, you know, someone decided that this is the correct way to write. And I have, you know, I have some, some really dear friends who like, are like majored in in English and have like done, you know, incredible things for like the Canadian Lit. But I just like, I'm often when I am in conversation with them sometimes, you know, they're, they're like discussing like a certain piece or, or like they, they need to like, you know, find the why to like this, this poem and like this, the poet is like long gone or it's like, um, it was something that, you know, potentially was written on like a, a scrap piece of paper and now they're like trying to digest it and break it down. Like, why did this person write this? And, and like, can't it just be for the sake of writing?
Speaker 5 00:41:54 Like, why are we trying to <laugh> why are we trying to put meaning behind something that like this person can cannot even share, you know, their own meaning behind. And then like, use that and, and this like, what I feel sometimes can be like really inaccessible institution, uni, universities or whatever, colleges, and then grade people on how well they can, you know, break that down and then and say they're like a, like a, a master at the language, which again, going back to what it's a baby language. And so we're using this like baby language to like communicate in ways that like often there's no deeper, there's no deeper way to say it. And so you just end up being like, like s saying the most surface level thing, when really you can almost be like in conversation with someone and be in the space and be sitting there and be like, I feel you. You don't have to say any words. I just feel this. Yeah. You know,
Speaker 2 00:43:13 I'm, I'm sitting with that. But yeah, definitely there. And that it exceeds the language. Like if the, if the intention is to move through emotion through the way that you convey that, that it is as the audience, how receptive are you to, to that rather than to be satisfied by knowing all the answers of that moment. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:43:38 He just like went right the camera face
Speaker 2 00:43:48 For the <laugh>.
Speaker 5 00:43:53 So cute.
Speaker 2 00:43:55 I love origin stories. I I say this frequently and I think like, um, for a, a sort of space like Ottawa and when you're creative and you're developing a practice or already in the field, um, paths crossed and I'm wondering how the two of yours paths crossed, uh, along the way, if you remember the origin story or if there's a new one to be made
Speaker 5 00:44:19 In our tongues. Um, I credit, I, well I definitely credit Sherry for sure, but I feel like, um, I really started like, um, knowing about NAA through like the internet. It was just like, oh, there's like, you know, something she's sharing and through like other community members that I know who are also friends with you and then cross-sharing that and then, you know, Instagram <laugh>,
Speaker 9 00:44:51 Like <laugh>
Speaker 4 00:44:56 Probably, I know, I think this is like exactly what I'm talking about. Like just know each other. Like the origin story is just sometimes it's just like being the same, being like, yeah, but I'll say I remember, um, this was early 2020 I think like, you know, start of Covid. There was an show, um, that I was a part of and this was right after and awful online performance or an online event that I had hosted with Urbans. Um, this was again, like early, early covid. Um, so Zoom events were like really new folks didn't really know how to ensure, um, like privacy, but zoom. So this, um, urban legends show that I hosted was Zoom and it was like really, really awful. Like, these folks showed up and were like, and like I was the face of this event. Everyone else had their camera off and it was just like really bad.
Speaker 4 00:46:05 Like, um, super, super traumatizing. And, um, the next show that I had on Zoom was within our, and, and again, this was like very soon after the show, so I was just like really shaken up. I just like really didn't trust, um, it's not that I didn't trust people, but I just didn't, was like, restricted enough these online events of something like happening again. Um, and I think this to me is a testament to like Ottawa community just in general when you find the right people. And, um, I was talking to my friend Wake about the inter show and I was like, oh my God, like this is exactly what I needed after that show. Like, I felt so cared for. Like, I, I was like, the whole time I was just like waiting for the other shoe to drop for like, something to go wrong and like to, to expect that.
Speaker 4 00:46:59 And it, it didn't, it was like such a like slow and relaxed and like show and I was telling my friend Wake about this and they were like, oh, yeah, I talked to in our, and I was like, listen, an awful experience on Zoom. Like, I wanna make sure that doesn't happen. And it's like, totally not that I didn't trust that Inners would like do an incredible job, but I was just like extra on edge. But I think the fact that like, already, of course, like by and Inners folks are like incredible people, but I think also the fact that I didn't even know that Wake was in my corner doing this work, like they told me after the fact and the fact that they did and like didn't clearly were not telling me to get anything outta it like they told me afterwards, passing felt so incredibly cared for. And again, it was like not something I had for, it was just like assumed that yeah, that like this thing happened. Like, let's make sure to like keep our own safe and yeah, I dunno, it's like such a special memory to me, honestly. Sweet. Oh, that's, yeah,
Speaker 5 00:48:03 That makes me feel so good. Yeah. I I'm so glad that you felt, um, that you felt cared for. It's really, it really is like one of our like mandates. Like it's, it's really important for us to not be the, you know, the aggressor or like, you know, and, and to actually like be very, very intentional. Um, and I think a lot of that is, is also because of like experiences of of other spaces that we've been in. But it just, that makes me feel so good. I'm so happy to hear that. And, and we love that show. So
Speaker 4 00:48:47 Also this is what happens when people of color run things. Like things go well. Things like things do not like Zoom bombing do not happen. Like you're cared about. You're cared for. Yeah. <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:48:59 There's follow through, there's mentorship, there's support.
Speaker 4 00:49:02 Yeah. There's check-ins. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:05 It makes a wealth of difference really. Wait.
Speaker 4 00:49:08 Oh, it absolutely does. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:49:12 Um, I think we're getting close to that time of wrapping up. Um, but I wanted to first of all thank the, the kitten for making an appearance.
Speaker 4 00:49:23 <laugh>, they're both there. Just so that's a Lumi who made a little guest appearance. So that's Kamir.
Speaker 2 00:49:29 Uh, just for, for folks listing in Halloumi, <laugh> and Pane are both wonderful cheeses, <laugh>. Um, I wanted to thank Marlene for joining in from a different time zone. Appreciate it, uh, Namita for taking time. Um, it's a pleasure to like, hear both of you speak of your work. And I'm also excited to see what other creative ventures you're both involved in and maybe cross past, like passing CROs. Passing CROs. No crossing paths. <laugh>,
Speaker 4 00:50:02 We get it. You know what, English is stupid. We are, it all comes back to
Speaker 2 00:50:06 Colonialism, <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:50:08 English. Oh my God. Um, but this has been so lovely and I think, you know, sort of the takeaway that I'm gonna leave the episode with is really thinking about what does it, what does it take and what does it mean to be in relation with each other, from a place of joy, from connecting and trying to make communities to sustain ourselves. And the only way we sustain ourselves are with the people and the, the communities we align ourselves with. Because otherwise it's quite bleak, <laugh>. Um, it's quite, it's quite draining. Um, they want to thank you so much for, for coming
Speaker 1 00:50:50 To be continued traveling. The archive is hosted and produced by Hawk. Technical support for the show comes through from Spin Sum. A major thanks goes to Hunter for their wonderful work in creating the local food series. The intro and commission works by artist Chris Bukowski. The show would not be possible without the support of Qag and the Council for the Arts Digital.
